Curse

Martin Alvito · Jul 24, 2009, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

The purpose of partying up with people lower rank than you is to help them.

GW is not a mandatory charity activity. Some players choose to run well-known guilds aimed at providing the education you describe. If that's what you want, join them.

If you want to get into a truly good group you'd better be good AND known to be good. No matter how well known you are, if you aren't good enough for the group's skill level you'll get booted after the first run. No matter how good you are, if no one knows about it groups will take players that aren't as good as you.

bitchbar player · Jul 24, 2009, 04:53 PM // 16:53

They will learn by analzing the match, learn from their and mistakes and the mistakes from others. Making mistakes and learning from them is the best way to get better no matter if an experienced player shows you your mistakes 100000 times if you don't see it yourself you wont learn.

Burst Cancel · Jul 24, 2009, 05:03 PM // 17:03

The OP assumes that rank discrimination is a genuine problem. This assumption needs to be justified before there is any discussion of a possible "solution". As several people have already pointed out, rank discrimination is a symptom of good players wanting to play with other good players. I fail to see how this is undesirable.

Sai Rith · Jul 24, 2009, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

The purpose of partying up with people lower rank than you is to help them. How do they learn if they dont party up with higher rank people?

By practicing? Watching obs mode? Playing together more? Learn through experience?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scythe O F Glory

Too bad you can't get into any sort of decent PvP guild without rank.

Too bad you can't get make a guild with a bunch of friends/other unranked players and practice and get better. Oh wait...............

Pistachio · Jul 24, 2009, 05:56 PM // 17:56

There's far too much elitism in HA these days, and I agree that something should be done about it. How about making different arenas for different ranks? It would encourage players in any category to play. That's what it's come down to anyway. Drop into the international district sometime and you'll see all the teams being split between ranks. Speaking as someone who has been playing since GW was released and having no rank at all, I consider HA completely closed off for me. It's impossible to get a team, and I simply don't have the patience to wait for the random PUG that comes around once an hour and can't get past the first match.

As I see it, unless you got into HA when GW was fresh on the market, you've been left behind. What does that say for those people who want to buy PvP accounts and start playing? The obvious answer from half the people on these boards would be, "Get in a PvP guild." What a lame excuse. Having a guild should not be a requirement to play HA, that's what Guild Battles are for. It's ridiculous that ANet has let HA get this far gone, and frankly, feels like a trap for any new players who are interested.

slowerpoke · Jul 24, 2009, 06:04 PM // 18:04

rank itself is a flawed measure of skill.

as a flat single number it really doesn't tell you much apart from in the past this person has played HA for a period of time.

they could have gained their rank 4 years ago, during a bonus weekend or even during a period of gimmick build play.

what there really needs to be is rank over time, just as guilds rank/rating are mapped via a graph to really see how a player has performed, if they have been active recently, are consistent and their current form.

Still Number One · Jul 24, 2009, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scythe O F Glory

Too bad you can't get into any sort of decent PvP guild without rank.

Do you want to know the biggest problem with this post? It is that you think a person with no rank deserves to be in a decent guild. You don't. You haven't earned anything. Do you know what type of guild a person with 0 experience gets to play in? It is a guild with other people who have 0 experience or a training guild (which are rare because the attitude new comers have is so unbelievably bad that no one wants to bother training you).

I and pretty much the rest of the PvP community started off playing with people who suck. We play with people who have no experience in PvP and want to break into it. It is what you do. You get better by playing with them and learning with them. You obs matches, you learn from your mistakes, you try, try, try, try, and try shit until it works. As a group you improve and get better. Eventually you will have that rank you always wanted.

It is like I've already stated in threads just like this before. You play at your level. If you are a middle school basketball player, you don't get to play with Michael Jordan. You play with middle schoolers. You work your way up, improve your abilities, until you have reached the point where you are good enough to play with the best. And guess what, IT IS GOING TO TAKE A LOT OF TIME. There is nothing you can do about it.

The problem isn't rank discrimination. It is the attitude of you new comers thinking you deserve to play with people who have been doing this for years. Not everyone is equal. This is not a carebear snugglefest where everyone is just as important as the next guy. This is a competitive environment. This is survival of the fittest. The better players are more important than you. You wanna be important? Then get on their level. Pro tip: Whining on a forum won't get you there.

Rocky Raccoon · Jul 24, 2009, 06:42 PM // 18:42

I don't do too much PvP (just AB) so I am really not too qualified to post any suggestions. It just seems to me that what is being said is you need to practice to get better and you should do it against other newer players. My question is how do you really get any better if you don't get the chance to play with people higher ranked to know where you stand?

Martin Alvito · Jul 24, 2009, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by slowerpoke

rank itself is a flawed measure of skill.

...snip...

what there really needs to be is rank over time, just as guilds rank/rating are mapped via a graph to really see how a player has performed, if they have been active recently, are consistent and their current form.

Absolutely true that we need better information, and a fair number of games have been moving toward this sort of rating model. The ladder was originally designed as both a handicapping tool and a means of judging guilds. Even it had problems, though. It rewarded playing a lot, which was undesirable and made it somewhat unreliable. I knew plenty of people in bottom-feeder guilds that couldn't beat their way out of a wet paper bag, but were top 100 because they beat anything ranked below 200 and played 20 times a day.

There are two problems with applying this sort of model to individual players of GW. First of all, it would increase the degree of discrimination based on skill. People would refuse to play their primary accounts with anyone that wasn't already known to be top flight. If you create a tiered ranking system, people's egos will demand that they be at the top of that ranking system.

Secondly, it's very hard to measure a player with automated analytics, except by the performance of their team. However, that is as much who you know as what you know, which would further reinforce discrimination.

Ideally, what we would want to know is: does your HA team stop failing and start winning and holding Halls right after you leave? Does your guild win more when just you are substituted out of the lineup? Unfortunately, this sort of information is very hard to compile and track. It could in principle be done (track how well the people you play with do when you're there and when you're not, adjusting for the skill level of the remainder of the team), but the design would not be a trivial task.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

This is not a carebear snugglefest where everyone is just as important as the next guy. This is a competitive environment. This is survival of the fittest. The better players are more important than you. You wanna be important? Then get on their level. Pro tip: Whining on a forum won't get you there.

You did well with this post until the bolded part, where you just reinforce his prejudices further. It's not that the better players are more important, it's that they've earned certain privileges as a result of that effort and time investment. You're not more "important". Odds are that if you stop playing most of the community will forget about you in a hurry.

Burst Cancel · Jul 24, 2009, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pistachio

There's far too much elitism in HA these days ...

What does this even mean? How much elitism is "too much"? What determines whether there is too much elitism or too little?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pistachio

It's impossible to get a team, and I simply don't have the patience to wait for the random PUG that comes around once an hour and can't get past the first match.

The irony here is that rank elitism exists exactly because everyone tries to avoid this outcome. It's telling that you don't seem to understand this.

refer · Jul 24, 2009, 07:52 PM // 19:52

I would love to try HA but it's beyond dead... then factor in that you can use AI help as well (wtf?). TA is also just as bad, you spend all your looking for groups and no time playing... everybody likes planning and quitting groups rather than playing.

Still Number One · Jul 24, 2009, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

You did well with this post until the bolded part, where you just reinforce his prejudices further. It's not that the better players are more important, it's that they've earned certain privileges as a result of that effort and time investment. You're not more "important". Odds are that if you stop playing most of the community will forget about you in a hurry.

I could have chosen a better word to describe what I was saying than important, but I stand by my point that PvP is not an equality movement. There are people on a higher pedestal then you. There is no such thing as equal ground for all. There are different tiers of play and you do not start on the same tier as people who have been playing for 4 years.

So yea I agree I could have used better words than "they are more important" when trying to get that point across. Thank you for pointing that out to me.

Sarevok Thordin · Jul 24, 2009, 07:59 PM // 19:59

People say "Players only want to play with good players"
But if a player can only become a good player by learning and working with good players to develop the knowledge, tactics and lingo etc...

How on earth is new talent generated, it's like the problem with rank itself, to get rank you NEED rank.

lord of all tyria · Jul 24, 2009, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarevok Thordin

People say "Players only want to play with good players"
But if a player can only become a good player by learning and working with good players to develop the knowledge, tactics and lingo etc...

How on earth is new talent generated, it's like the problem with rank itself, to get rank you NEED rank.

Apart from the bit where you don't need rank in order to earn fame. You just aren't going to be earning 100 fame per night or more..

Still Number One · Jul 24, 2009, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarevok Thordin

But if a player can only become a good player by learning and working with good players to develop the knowledge, tactics and lingo etc...

If that were the case then no one would be good. Everyone who is "good" played with people who weren't when they started off. After playing the game a lot, you learn what works and what doesn't and you get better.

Why does everyone think you can only get better if you have a great player holding your hand? The best way to learn is to get better on your own. You learn the best by figuring out your mistakes and how to fix them on your own. Everybody, myself included, started off playing with terrible players. I learned by messing up. I would try to figure out why I messed up, and then stop doing that so I wouldn't mess up as often. Eventually I got better and started playing at a higher level of play.

STOP THINKING YOU NEED TO PLAY WITH BETTER PLAYERS IN ORDER TO GET BETTER. You get better by playing. No matter who it is with. You have to make yourself better, no one else can do it for you.

Regulus X · Jul 24, 2009, 08:31 PM // 20:31

You can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

Similarly, you can take a n00b to HA, but you can't make him wtfpwn.

This idea, while absolutely thoughtful and heart-felt by all means, is pure theorycraft and will fail as well as become abused very easily with multiple account fame-farmers.

/notsigned for abusability, plus opposing the idea of supporting mind-blindedly terrible players (aka: n00bs) to plague PvP even more.

*lemming* · Jul 24, 2009, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Shouldn't bad suggestion threads be in Sardelac?

Elri · Jul 24, 2009, 08:35 PM // 20:35

i think its a great idea..anet should impliment it right away.

Pistachio · Jul 24, 2009, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

What does this even mean? How much elitism is "too much"? What determines whether there is too much elitism or too little?

HA inherently has no system to discriminate based on rank, time played, matches played, etc, etc. So, when the player population creates their own filter where it is impossible to get a team without rank. That is too much elitism.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

The irony here is that rank elitism exists exactly because everyone tries to avoid this outcome. It's telling that you don't seem to understand this.

It's telling that you don't understand the issue. It's not that I care elitism exists, it's only natural - I care that it's gotten to the point where it overruns HA, and there is now no middle ground. For someone without rank, it's either cannon fodder or nothing. How is that system not broken? Also, you should look up the definition of Irony.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

It is like I've already stated in threads just like this before. You play at your level. If you are a middle school basketball player, you don't get to play with Michael Jordan. You play with middle schoolers. You work your way up, improve your abilities, until you have reached the point where you are good enough to play with the best. And guess what, IT IS GOING TO TAKE A LOT OF TIME. There is nothing you can do about it.

Middle school basketballers and Michael Jordan? We are talking about a video game here, Pumpkin. This is hardly a fair comparison.

Now this is truly telling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

The problem isn't rank discrimination. It is the attitude of you new comers thinking you deserve to play with people who have been doing this for years. Not everyone is equal. This is not a carebear snugglefest where everyone is just as important as the next guy. This is a competitive environment. This is survival of the fittest. The better players are more important than you. You wanna be important? Then get on their level. Pro tip: Whining on a forum won't get you there.

You new comers? Survival of the fittest? Better players are more important than you? It is exactly ^this^ kind of attitude that is the problem - believing you have entitlement over anyone else because you think you're a better player. Any new comer to the game has every right to play with anyone else because he or she payed the price for an account. That's it.

YunSooJin · Jul 24, 2009, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Actually that is called HELPING someone out, as in the strong helping the weak? Isn't that what being a hero, in any MMO, is all about? Such a concept does indeed exist.

Ironically, it is rare in a game such as this because most people are just interested in their own enjoyment. It is the old "I bought this game to enjoy myself, not to help others mentality".

If you only work with people of similar ranks that are as strong as you are, then you are only helping yourself out, aren't you? This is why I hate HA and TA.

No it's called I don't want to waste my time screwing myself and 6 other players on the team because one person has no RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing clue what they're doing.

Naivete at its finest.